A well-known Kannada poet and writer who hails from Mudnakudu village of Chamarajanagar district in southern Karnataka, Mudnakudu Chinnaswamy is a prominent Dalit voice in the Kannada world of letters. His prodigious corpus of 50 books, which includes poetry collections, essay compilations, plays, and collections of short stories, has helped him carve a niche for himself. Much feted for his work, Chinnaswamy has been awarded the Karnataka Sahitya Academy Award (2009), the Karnataka State Award for Lifetime Achievement (2014), and the Sahitya Akademi Award (2022). Several of his works have been translated into English and Spanish, apart from other Indian languages.
His 2007 discourse on Gautam Buddha (6th century BCE), Basava (12th century CE), and Bhimrao Ambedkar (1891-1956), published originally in Kannada titled Ondu Koda Halina Samara, has recently been translated into English by Jyothi S. as Milk of Equality, Soured (Panther’s Paw Publication, Nagpur). Chinnaswamy explains the book’s title: “Movements, like ripples on a pond, inevitably begin when circumstances bring together fresh milk and a drop of sourness.” In an interview with Frontline, Chinnaswamy spoke about his book at length. Edited excerpts:
You have written a detailed commentary on the thoughts and actions of three extraordinary individuals (Buddha, Basava, and Ambedkar) who radically reimagined their social milieu and left profound legacies after their passing. Why did you feel the need to study their lives and ideologies together?
The Vedic religion in its original form was barbaric. There is no religion in the world which advocates inequality sans brotherhood among human beings but the Rigveda categorises people into four varnas as Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra; Honour, along with wealth, power to rule, education, and ownership of land were preserved with the first three varnas which were fewer in number whereas most of the population (that is, Shudras) were left to serve the three varnas and live at their mercy.
Later, these varnas were divided into many castes according to the work that they performed. This division led to a social hierarchy of high and low, pushing the people who performed menial jobs to the bottom. Endogamy was also introduced within these compartments with the intention of safeguarding the privileges of the higher varnas besides having patriarchal control over women. This was a gross injustice on human society and went on for centuries.
Though there were many visionaries, no one seriously questioned the inequality inbuilt into dharma [religion] until Gautam Buddha’s time who preached for 45 years after attaining enlightenment. His teachings, based on moral principles, emphasised equality and fraternity. His compassion engulfed all living beings and he did not recognise God but venerated nature. Importantly, he did not proclaim himself as an atheist but remained an agnostic. He discarded all rituals and focussed his teachings on mindfulness. Meditation and generosity are the two important practices Buddhists follow.
Many centuries after the Buddha, the emergence of Basava in the Kannada speaking region heralded a new revolution: The prevalent Hindu lifestyle of the time ensured that iniquity ruled society and untouchability was widely practised. Basava opposed the Vedic system which legitimised this social hierarchy and wrote many vachanas [religious lyric in Kannada free verse] condemning these practices. His great achievement was bringing people of all castes together under one roof called the Anubhava Mantapa [Hall of Experience]. The collection of vachanas which were produced by Basava and his peers propagated the uniformity of human beings irrespective of their caste at birth and emphasised that there is only one God. Vachanas form an important component of Kannada literature to this day. Since both the Buddha and Basava were opposed to Vedic traditions, I thought it would be valuable to compare their lives and preachings.
Babasaheb Ambedkar strived for the annihilation of caste and untouchability and ensured policy reforms to assure social justice for the oppressed class. His erudition and scholarship were peerless and manifested in the Constitution of India. Similarly, Gautam Buddha (through the Dhamma) and Basava (through the vachanas) presented their own ideal versions of society shorn of social prejudices. Thus, while all three lived in different time periods, their concerns were the same and my intention was to examine these icons on their own terms.
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Buddhism offered an alternative belief system premised on equality, brotherhood, and justice, and this religion swiftly spread all over the subcontinent. Within a few centuries though, it was snuffed out from most parts of the subcontinent. What led to its annihilation in India, the land of its birth?
Buddhism was at its peak at the time of Asoka [ruled 268-232 BCE] who was responsible for spreading the Dhamma across Asia. The last king in his [Maurya] lineage Brihadratha [ruled 187-185 BCE] was assassinated by his own general, Pushyamitra Shunga [ruled 185-149 BCE], who usurped the throne and violently sought to reinstate Vedic traditions. It is recorded that he offered 100 gold coins to those who brought him the severed head of a Buddhist monk. Many Buddhist monasteries were burnt down during this time. Considering that royal patronage of a religion meant that the subjects would also end up following that religion during that era, Buddhism waned and Brahminism thrived. Adi Shankaracharya’s activities (in the 8th century CE) marked a turning point heralding Hindu renaissance.
“Babasaheb Ambedkar strived for the annihilation of caste and untouchability and ensured policy reforms to assure social justice for the oppressed class. His erudition and scholarship were peerless and manifested in the Constitution of India.”
Basava is not as well-known as the other two. You say this was because his movement was restricted to Karnataka. Although his followers, the Lingayats, have been absorbed within the nebulous folds of Hinduism, there was a demand to identify Lingayatism as a distinct religion some years ago. Thoughts?
Lingayatism is truly a distinct religion as its tenets stand quite contrary to those prescribed in the Vedic religion. Basava introduced the concept of Ishtalinga, that is, the concept of monotheism, while the dominant Vedic religion was characterised by polytheism under which not everyone was considered equal in the eyes of all the gods. A deity was associated with each caste and temples were constructed accordingly. Basava reinterpreted the theory of karma and the concept of reincarnation. He was vehemently against the caste system and untouchability and consciously nourished gender equality. Therefore, from all perspectives, Lingayatism fulfils the qualities to be recognised as a separate religion from Hinduism.

Cover of Mudnakudu Chinnaswamy’s Milk of Equality, Soured. Chinnaswamy explains the book’s title: “Movements, like ripples on a pond, inevitable begin when circumstances bring together fresh milk and a drop of sourness.” | Photo Credit: By Special Arrangement
It has been almost 70 years since Ambedkar embraced Buddhism on October 14, 1956, which marked the culmination of his intellectual and ideological journey (he passed away not long after on December 6, 1956). Why did most Dalits not follow Ambedkar in this transformative conversion of their faith?
Babasaheb Ambedkar studied all religions before choosing to embrace Buddhism as, according to him, it fulfilled the spiritual requirements of the modern age and encouraged a scientific temper. Soon after his conversion, lakhs of his followers, who were mostly from his home state of Maharashtra, followed suit. It was a misfortune that he passed away within two months of this event as, had he survived for a few more years, the Buddhist population in India would have been much larger than what it is today.
Of course, over time, as the influence of Ambedkar has grown, people of downtrodden classes are showing a greater inclination to convert to Buddhism. There are many new viharas coming up across India and the number of monks is increasing. Converted Dalits continue to state their caste information as Scheduled Castes because of an apprehension that they may lose reservation benefits if they abandon this historical identity. Thus, the actual number of Buddhists in India, which may be much higher, is not accurately reflected in the census data.
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Certain scholars (especially those who endorse the politics of Hindutva) argue that “caste” as understood today is a Western construct imposed during colonial times, which oversimplified and misrepresented the far more fluid varna-jati complex of the pre-colonial era. How do you see this?
Over the past few years, certain scholars have started constructing false narratives to absolve their forbears from the sin of creating the caste system and untouchability. There is enough proof in historical sources and mythology to show how shudras were treated for violating strict caste rules. (Shambuka and Ekalavya stand as the best exemplars of this.) A few young right-wing historians have commenced writing books negating the many positive contributions of Muslim and British rule on the society of India.
However, the fact remains that it was during the British colonial period that education was finally imparted to Shudras and Dalits. Much of the Indian population was treated worse than animals over millenniums after forcing Buddhism out of the subcontinent. When the world was galloping towards modernity and progress, the human resources of the Indian subcontinent were wasted because of this structural inequality. I can only say that this new breed of scholars is deeply flawed in its understanding of Indian history and mythology.
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