What is the New Thought movement?

Join Mark Turman on the Denison Forum Podcast as he sits down with theologian, apologist, and author Melissa Dougherty to examine the rise of counterfeit Christianity. Melissa shares her insights on the New Thought movement, revealing its deceptive influence on Christian theology and culture. Through her personal journey from New Thought beliefs to authentic Christianity, they discuss the impact of prosperity gospel teachings and the need for critical thinking in matters of faith. Explore how New Thought misrepresents Christian terminology and leads believers astray, underscoring the vital role of discernment in today’s church.

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Topics

• (01:06): Introducing Melissa Dougherty and her book Happy Lies
• (01:58): Understanding the New Thought movement
• (05:02): The influence of New Thought on self-help and society
• (07:21): The core beliefs of New Thought
• (20:23): Historical figures and modern influences of New Thought
• (28:56): Cockroach Christians vs. Elite: Early Church battles
• (29:42): Gnosticism in the Early Church
• (30:44): New Thought and its core beliefs
• (34:50): Defining New Age and New Thought
• (38:45): The Prosperity Gospel and New Thought
• (41:25): Theological reflections on suffering and prosperity
• (46:10): Cynicism and anti-intellectualism in Christianity
• (53:09): Final thoughts and reflections

Resources

• https://www.denisonforum.org/subscribe/
• Melissa Dougherty’s Website
• Happy Lies: How a Movement You (Probably) Never Heard Of Shaped Our Self-Obsessed World
• facebook.com/NewAgeToChristianity
• Melissa Dougherty – YouTube
• The Melissa Dougherty Podcast | Podcast on Spotify
• https://www.instagram.com/MelissaLDougherty
• A review of Happy Lies by Chris Elkins

About Melissa Dougherty

Melissa Dougherty is a Christian apologist best known for her YouTube channel with over 285,000 subscribers and counting. Her videos, which primarily cover New Age and New Thought, have been viewed over 18 million times. Melissa is highly regarded and connected in the apologetics community. She has had numerous influential guests on her YouTube channel and is a frequent guest on the YouTube videos and podcasts of popular thinkers as well.

Melissa has a bachelor’s degree in religious studies from Southern Evangelical Seminary, where she’s also pursuing her master’s degree in religious studies. Melissa is married with two daughters and lives in New Mexico.

About Dr. Mark Turman

Dr. Mark Turman is the Executive Director of Denison Forum and Vice President of Denison Ministries. Among his many duties, Turman is most notably the host of The Denison Forum Podcast. He is also the chief strategist for DF Pastors, which equips pastors and church leaders to understand and transform today’s culture.

About Denison Forum

Denison Forum exists to thoughtfully engage the issues of the day from a biblical perspective through The Daily Article email newsletter and podcast, The Denison Forum Podcast, as well as many books and additional resources.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

NOTE: This transcript was AI-generated and has not been fully edited. 

 [00:00:00] Dr. Mark Turman: Welcome. This is the Denison Forum Podcast. I’m Mark Turman, your host for today’s conversation. As we attempt to help you to be equipped, to be salt and light, as I like to say, to be salty bright in the places where God has placed you to be a representative and an ambassador for him. A couple of quotes to get started on our topic today.

You’ve probably heard things like this somewhere in the past. A half truth is worse than a whole lie. We’re going to get into that in a very significant way. Our friend and colleague at the Colson Center, John Stone Street, likes to say that ideas have consequences and bad ideas have victims. We’ll get into that realm as well.

We’re going to talk today about counterfeit Christianity, how many of the wonderful, most profound truths of the gospel. I’ve been twisted up and creating so much damage in people’s lives, sometimes in churches and in communities. And we’re going to talk about how that looks in our current culture. My guest and thought partner today is Melissa Daugherty.

And she is most importantly, not only a person, but a follower of Jesus. She would probably want you to know that she’s a wife, a mom, a theologian, an apologist, and a very popular presence on YouTube. She’s a graduate of Southern Evangelical Seminary, and she is author of a recent book called Happy Lies, which just by the title, Melissa, makes people probably want to pick up this book.

What do you mean by happy lies? And so first of all, welcome to the Denison Forum podcast. We’re glad to have you with us. 

[00:01:42] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah thanks for having me. You are awfully kind to call me a theologian. I’ll take that. 

[00:01:47] Dr. Mark Turman: Everybody is at some level, right? 

[00:01:49] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, that’s true, yes. 

[00:01:51] Dr. Mark Turman: Everybody that’s ever had at least a single thought about God qualifies, at least in some ways, as a theologian.

But let’s talk in your book is about a big, big topic that is at times hard to wrap your brain around and maybe new to a lot of us it is about the movement that is called new thought. And in, in, even in those two words, there’s a lot for us to grasp. But it kind of what is your book about?

And what in the heck is new thought? 

[00:02:22] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, sure. People might think they don’t know what this is, but they know exactly what this is. It’s one of those things where you’re looking around you in society and you see the symptoms like you’re seeing all these things going on. And as Christians, we see things going on in the church and we wonder, what is that?

This isn’t new age. I know what progressive Christianity is. It’s, it’s not that either. What is this? And I’m here to say it’s probably new thought. And so the subtitle for the book is how a movement you’ve probably never heard of shaped our self obsessed world. Because it’s not just a, it’s not a religion.

It’s, it’s a movement. It’s philosophical. It’s secular as well as spiritual. And in a sentence, I like to describe New Thought as the positive thinking movement in America with Jesus as its mascot. In two words, I like to say they actually describe themselves as this, as metaphysical Christianity and it’s a higher, more spiritual, more enlightened, better type of Christianity.

This is actually my past belief system. I didn’t know that’s what it was. I became a Christian at 16, and as time went on, I got a little disillusioned with some Christians and Christian teachings. I had lots of questions that weren’t answered, and I grew up with this type of open minded look at the Bible and, and Jesus.

I just didn’t know what those origins were. I didn’t know what was informing that. And it was, it was the new thought movement and it’s actually very popular in, in the world and in, in the country. We just don’t recognize it. So that’s kind of why I wrote this book, but 

[00:04:18] Dr. Mark Turman: yeah, so my origins 

[00:04:19] Melissa Dougherty: are in this movement as well.

[00:04:20] Dr. Mark Turman: Okay. Yeah. And I want to get to some of your own. journey through that. That’s one of the great things about what you wrote about is just how, how this kind of infected your understanding of faith as well. And we, we want to unpack that as well. But did you coin this term or did somebody else in your research for your writing?

Yeah, the thought. 

[00:04:41] Melissa Dougherty: No, this is this is a historical movement. Anybody there’s books written about this movement that the boring old history actually here. Here’s one right here. I actually have here. The principles of new thought is one of them. This is one of the references I use there. These books are everywhere.

Yeah, there’s Tons of, of books written about the New Thought Movement. Just nobody ever reads them. And it’s fascinating how much this movement has affected the church, our way of thinking, the way that we, the way that we look at how we help ourselves in society, like self help movement. How much this movement has.

truly affected everything, but nobody knows it has a name. 

[00:05:24] Dr. Mark Turman: And 

[00:05:24] Melissa Dougherty: No, I did not coin this. This is a, a a, a historical movement that has been studied, written about and is very researchable. 

[00:05:34] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. I was wondering if, as I was reading and then listening to you, if you know, somebody that used to set up Barnes and Noble bookstores had the idea this would be the new thought section, but that’s not really good marketing.

So let’s call it self help. 

[00:05:47] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah, it’s actually a good way. Yeah. Yeah. That’s actually, that’s chapter, what chapter is that? I think it’s chapter seven is the self help movement and how the new thought authors were the foundational. Genesis of the self help movement. And I, I break that down and, and why that is because ultimately the, the, the goal was to say, Hey, you know that God that’s over here.

Guess what? That’s not really going to help you. You got to pull yourself up. You have that power. You it’s all about you. And that sounds simplistic, but that’s ultimately. The, the, the message is be a good person. You got this. And how that comes out in all these different forms, it’s just regurgitated.

And a lot of it, some of it is actually genuinely helpful. And I wouldn’t even have an issue with if I’m honest, because some of it is just giving good advice. And it’s, it’s got to be very nuanced. Every single chapter I wrote, it was so difficult because there had to be nuance with it. I couldn’t just.

Blanket, the whole self help movement. I’ve read books in the self help, self transformation section that were not spiritually dangerous, that weren’t. evil. Some of them are Christian books that actually have really good stuff in it. But then it would be right next to the secret, you know, teaching the law of attraction by Rhonda Byrne or a Mel Robbins book, you know, and it’s a mixed bag.

So there was, it wasn’t just the movement. It was the teachings I tried to focus on. 

[00:07:20] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. One of the things that just kept coming out as I was working through your writing was that this idea that at the core of new thought is that Is really goes back to this very basic idea that human beings are inherently good.

Yes, and and that because they are inherently good Then they can solve all of their own problems given the right approach. Am I on to the right track of where New Thought goes with that? 

[00:07:48] Melissa Dougherty: I would agree with that. I would say it takes it a step further and says that humanity is divine. That’s actually one of the things that I It’s funny you mentioned the title and the subtitle.

If I could tweak it, I would say instead of self obsession, I would have said self worship. Because it’s this idea that the reason why you have power, spiritual power, mind power, power in your words, power in your thoughts, is because you are somehow divine. Now how you square that circle is very interesting because My thesis, if you will, in the book is that New Thought is more dangerous for the Christian because it’s made to look and sound Christian.

New Age doesn’t. And so New Thought is very unique in that aspect. So how, as a Bible believing Christian, or as a Christian in general, maybe you’re not too familiar with the Bible, or maybe you read a lot of devotionals, whatever it is. Maybe there’s, maybe there’s an element where you are. Trying to heal a trauma.

There’s, there’s, there’s feelings or emotions and whatever it is. Maybe you’re not as familiar with scripture as you should be. And a teaching comes in that says you have inherent power and that power God wants you to have. You have creative power. This is actually what Jesus was trying to teach. And those that are able to see will see that Jesus was trying to teach you that you can have the same power he has.

He’s the example for you. And you don’t understand that what you’re buying into is. This book, this new thought belief that you are divine, right? You wouldn’t actually think, Oh, I’m divine. Just like you wouldn’t come out and say that you would say it in different ways in a sense where you’re sharing God’s power and that you have this innate.

Power within you. And so there’s lots of different languages and ways that we can fall for it. I know because that’s what happened to me. And it’s really tricky because like for example, I’m not sure how many people are familiar with the book, The Secret. It was a cultural phenomenon a few years ago.

It still has waves today. It’s about the law of attraction, and it was written by a woman named Rhonda Byrne. And I mean, if you’re on Tik Tok, Instagram, I mean, you’re still seeing a lot of these beliefs around today. And the idea is the law of attraction teaches that your thoughts, words, and emotions have power.

You can create your reality through your thoughts and feelings and what you speak like attracts so you’re a mirror and whatever you put out as far as like your thoughts. Which is taught as a science. Okay. This is important that it’s a vibrational frequency, that whatever you’re thinking and feeling is science.

It’s misused science, but it sounds so confident that you’re listening to this and you’re like, oh, there’s science here, but there’s also Bible scriptures thrown in. Yeah. So you, you believe it’s scientific and scriptural. Okay. And you’re, you’re buying into it. You’re buying into it that you can create things.

If you want health, wealth, romance, whatever it is, you can make it happen. You must make it happen. All you got to do is change your thoughts. Okay. And you’re, you’re in it. Okay. You’re buying it. And then boom, at the very end, what she saves this for the last pages, the reason why you’re able to do it is because you are God.

And she doesn’t even hide it. And I, if you’ve read the book, you know that I quote her word for word. In that section, you are God in a physical body. You are the oceans ebb and flow for you. It’s all about you. You are magnificent. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it sounds really good if you, if you bought everything before then that actually makes.

as crazy as that sounds, that makes sense. And you now believe, oh, this is something Jesus taught and it gets tricky. 

[00:11:54] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, and it gets, and like I said, especially in a, in a world where, you know, for a long time, especially going back into you know, some of the early days of COVID where everybody was, you know, follow the science, follow the science.

And there’s, you know, there’s long been this, this Relationship sometimes animosity between between faith and spirituality and science and the idea of Oh, no, these things fit together this right way. And if we understand how they fit together right, then we have both the best of spirituality and science.

Yes. And if you, and if you say that really confidently, that sounds extremely attractive. Yes. To somebody that’s wanting to understand their world and wanting, in many ways, to control. You know, autonomy and agency are really big players in this conversation. But I want to go back to that idea of understanding who Jesus is, because so much of what I gathered from your work is that in many ways, New Thought is using the same words, but they’re changing the definitions.

And this is particularly true when it comes to the person of Jesus. As the Bible proclaims him to be this very unique, one of a kind God man who is equally human and divine, but is unique and unrivaled, but that’s not the way New Thought would explain Jesus, right? 

[00:13:19] Melissa Dougherty: No. No they would say he, okay, so if you’re sitting across from somebody who believes these beliefs, number one, they’re not going to say they’re a new thought or most likely they’ll say they’re spiritual or they might even say they’re Christian.

That’s very important. Okay. So you’re, you’re hearing them talk about everything you just said, but what they would they’ll agree with you. Yeah. Jesus is God. I believe that Jesus is God, absolutely. Now what they may not tell you is they don’t believe he’s uniquely God, that he’s uniquely the son of God.

You are too. You are just as much the Christ, just as much the I am as Jesus was. And Jesus was trying to teach you about this, this, this esoteric belief. That, you know, and some, some of them believe that’s what got him killed is that he was speaking the truth and they didn’t like that, that they were trying, he was, yeah, that can kind of get a little Gnostic depends on who you’re talking to in the movement, but he’s not uniquely God.

He was there to show you the potential that you have. As a human being. And you know, what gets me is that I, I grew up with these beliefs. Okay. And I remember hearing things like if we could have the spiritual capacity that Jesus had, then we could walk through walls, you know, like we could disappear. We could bend spoons with our minds and all this stuff.

And wow, that sounded so fascinating to me as a kid. But then immediately right afterwards, even as a kid, I saw the flaw with this. Because the first thing I thought was why is nobody doing that then there’s nobody doing that. You, you, you know, and I think that there’s a lot of people that might, you know, fake it till they make it if you will.

But nobody is, is doing things the way that Jesus did not even close. Nobody’s walking on water. Nobody’s going and, and, and doing anything, raising people from the dead in the capacity that he did. And I’m not saying that miracles don’t happen. I’m no cessationist. But what I’m saying is that he is uniquely God.

He is unique in his powers. And I think that’s the thing is that. There’s an application of his power to humanity. And so the way that they would see it, I mentioned metaphysical Christianity before. Let me explain that here. Okay. 

[00:15:44] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, 

[00:15:44] Melissa Dougherty: because this I think would really help people understand again, how that square is circled.

Because it’s What I don’t mean by that is I go to Southern Evangelical Seminary and there’s a whole theological class that goes into the metaphysics of God. That’s more philosophical. What are the attributes of God? What are the unseen things that make God who he is? There’s an appropriate area within theological circles that define that very differently.

That is not what I mean when I say metaphysical in this sense, and that’s not what I believed it when I was in this. It’s beyond the physical.

Everything in the material world, there’s a spiritual counterpart for it that you can control through your thoughts, words, and feelings including words, right? So if I’m reading, let me put it this way, if I’m reading words on a page, those are just words. How I feel about them and how I interpret it is really the true meaning, okay?

So if I come across the word Christ. In scripture, there’s actually a deeper metaphysical esoteric meaning to that word. Okay. So when Jesus was talking sometimes he was talking from the position of the Christ consciousness, which is a new thought term. A lot of people think that’s new age, that is new thought.

And what that is, is it separates Jesus from Christ. Jesus is a man just like you, just a human, just like anybody who obtained. the Christ, which is the dormant inner divinity within humanity. So if he obtained the Christ, so can you. And it turns into this big, yeah, this big mess. And you know what, actually, let me read this to you because one New Thought book some like the symbolism and, and the, the metaphors and the allegorical examples.

That they would come across in scripture. This is a good example of it. So one new thought book puts it this way. When it comes to this, we begin to view the crucifixion of Jesus, not as an experience of helpless martyrdom nor the Christ cross of Calvary as the ultimate symbol of suffering, humiliation, and sacrifice, but rather as supreme symbols of victory.

We learn to approach personal times of severe testing. which they call crucifixion experiences, with a growing awareness of the ever present and victorious Christ spirit within. In order for the life transforming power of the Christ principle, which is the Christ consciousness. Remember, we hear it with that with our Christian ears, if you read this with their ear, with their definition.

The Christ principle to work on our behalf. However, it must be activated, called forth from the realm of divine potential to be utilized in the practical dilemmas of our daily lives. So in other words, all these things are redefined. Crucifixion is redefined to represent the overwhelming obstacles. You know, the, the, the Goliath’s in your life, you know, and you’re the David that needs to overcome it becomes this, what is this verse mean to me kind of thing.

And yeah, so that’s kind of a an overview, not just Jesus, but how they would view the Bible as well. 

[00:19:00] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. And I could, as you were talking, I could see how they would pull scripture out to try to reinforce their case here. Yeah. I could hear, I could hear them saying. That passage out of Philippians, you know, you’re to have the mind, the mind that was in Christ, the attitude that was in Christ should also be in you.

I could hear them pulling out, you know, take every thought captive not to the person of Christ, not to the authority of the Holy Spirit, but rather to your, Understanding right? Yeah, you’re to your Christ consciousness. Take every thought Yeah, 

[00:19:34] Melissa Dougherty: and then like I am the way the truth of the life. Nobody comes to the father except through me They would say oh, that’s Jesus speaking from the Christ consciousness John 1 1 in the beginning that’s the Christ, you know, and it’s so convenient that they can do that, but it’s really just misrepresentation and misreading.

It’s a bad hermeneutic, but I think that there’s a level of, this is why I had a whole chapter on truth because to educate the reader, I went over the history, the defining terms, and then truth, because you got to understand those three things to understand anything else on again, how they. How two plus two equals purple, you know, like how, how do they get there, you know, because if we’re coming at scripture, which they don’t do to any other book, then how do they get there?

It’s, it’s has a lot to do with how they view truth and how that’s within. 

[00:20:23] Dr. Mark Turman: Is there, as you, as you unpack this part of the book at the beginning, kind of unpacks some of the proponents of new thought that in some of those names might surprise people. Is, is there someone Melissa that you look to in history?

That would be kind of the epitome of a New Thought leader. Is there someone today or even, I know we don’t want to pick on personalities necessarily, but you know, is there someone that is kind of the face of this movement in your mind? 

[00:20:55] Melissa Dougherty: In the past or currently or both? Most people for the past would recognize Phineas Quimby as the father of the New Thought movement.

I say it goes back. I mean, of course, it’s the serpent’s lie. It really does start in the garden, you know, I mean, question God, give power, wash, rinse, repeat. It’s it’s just Satan’s calling card. But. New thought is very Gnostic in origin. I wouldn’t say it’s inherently. I mean, it’s mixed with different things today.

I mean, you can go back there But I would go back and it probably even goes back further than this man But I I go back to Emmanuel Swedenborg Which again not a lot of people know about but they should because he’s very interesting person to look into he Anton Mesmer is another one. I mean, these are names that people don’t know very much about and may not recognize at all, but they have, they were the beginning of this tsunami of a movement that nobody’s ever heard of, but everybody’s affected by.

But Phineas Quimby is probably the name people would recognize. Mary Baker Eddy with Christian Science. She was a student of Quimby’s. 

[00:22:05] Dr. Mark Turman: Okay. 

[00:22:06] Melissa Dougherty: However, she was a little nuts. To put it simply. That, that is one of, there’s a few new thought cults. That’s one of them. Christian science is a New Thought cult, and they did not get along.

Mary Baker Eddy made a lot of people mad, and so they broke away from her. She was unstable on many levels, but she went off and started Christian science, and a lot of the concepts. It’s in Christian science, our new thought, it’s just really dogmatic, very cult like, which is what they were trying to get away from.

They wanted Jesus without the dogma, you know, and so there was a divide there. So those are some names people might recognize. 

[00:22:45] Dr. Mark Turman: And you’ll see that even today. I mean, we, we hear stories out of Hollywood particularly, right, where Hollywood stars are into Scientology or in, into Christian science, that type of thing.

So it’s, it’s not like it’s not with us. It’s still very much with us in that. 

[00:22:59] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. Scientology. As far as the 

[00:23:00] Dr. Mark Turman: face of it. Yeah. 

[00:23:01] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. That’s different. That Scientology is not, is its own beast. I actually just did an interview with my friend Lindsay about that. It’s a crazy religion. But no, they’re not related as far as belief system, Scientology and Christian science.

I think everybody at this time though is weird. This is post enlightenment. This is one of my favorite things to discuss about the new thought movement is the history because a lot of people were. Becoming, Oh, wow, this is new. Look at the new things we have going on with science, with spirituality and, you know, and new thought.

There was dabblings with the spirit world and the power of the mind and, and alternatives to healing and prosperity and all these things. And for them, they first were called the mind sciences. The mind or sciences and so everybody was trying to like smash science and spirituality and with their names But it labeled later kind of grew into new thought new thinking and there’s so many people that got the baton handed to them Ralph Waldo Emerson you have authors that nobody knows we’re new thought authors like Dale Carnegie Colleen Hill, Norman Vincent Peale, who is a, the positive thinking minister, Robert Shuler.

I mean, you’re talking about a lot of people that have affected the way we do church today, but the most popular person, if I were to say, I’m going to name two, this might tick somebody off and then other people are probably going to nod their heads and be like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. First one is.

Oprah, Oprah Winfrey is probably the most popular example I can give of somebody who’s new thought. Everybody thinks she’s new age. And some people might be familiar with a video, a deep dive video I made of why Oprah Winfrey’s not a new ager. She is a new thoughter, and I think it’s a very strong case that she, I definitely, I think I have a very strong case for that, that she’s a new thoughter.

I, I think it’s. It’s not even arguable in my opinion. It’s very difficult to show she’s a new ager and she’s the best example because she calls herself a Christian, believes in Christ consciousness all these things that would be anti biblical. So how does she get there? And I try to make sense of that.

She’s the best example. Marianne Williamson is another. She used to be a unity minister. Which unity is one of the largest new thought denominations. And then the other person one other person I’m going to name who arguably is probably closer to new thoughts than most is a word of faith pastor who goes by the name of Joel Osteen.

Joel Osteen is probably In fact, people in the New Thought movement are sympathetic to Joel’s teachings. And I even quote there’s a, many documentaries on New Thought that I watched. And one of them one of the, the, I think it was a minister or a reverend in New Thought said that New Thought, or Joel seems basically a New Thought minister.

You know, like he says some fundamental things, he waves around a Bible, but he’s a, that’s a unity minister. He’s saying very New Thought things. And I understood that completely, what he meant by that. And there are some connections there with Joel. But I, I think that the I am affirmations, for example, like I am declarations, that’s Not unique to Joel that that affirmations are new thought prayers and in the origin of how they even became to exist They are affirmative prayers.

You are praying in the now because there’s power in your belief and in your emotions So you don’t ask you you say I have I am. 

[00:26:17] Dr. Mark Turman: You summon, right? 

[00:26:19] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. You wouldn’t even think of it as you’re summoning. You are believing that you have it right now because there’s power in that. If you are, remember, it’s a vibrational frequency and emotions are key, absolutely key, which in my opinion leaves you up for deception, which is by design, but if you, you have to feel it.

And you, you cannot, and this is, I make an argument, this movement and the peripheral Christian movements that it has affected really do not like critical thinking. All right, critical thinking is negative thinking. So if you. Right. Are believing for something. And this is, it’s so sad because I mean, we, we believe in for things that we’re believing for things that we don’t, that bring us pain.

All right. Maybe it’s health. Maybe we, we need a new job. Maybe we’re lonely, whatever it is. The idea is the pattern is you have to believe that you have it. And if anybody comes along and questions that, or says, or makes you question it. It makes you think that you’re not going to receive it, then they are part of the problem.

Mark and avoid. Okay. And so that creates an echo chamber and it creates this, this lock on your head where you’re not allowed to doubt ever. You’re not allowed to think that you’re not going to get it. And so ultimately, you are deceived into thinking that this is the way of it. This is how you’re going to get your blessing.

But in reality, it’s self deception. It’s a self deception. And I think that’s part of the problem. A big part of the problem is we kind of do it to ourselves because we want to believe it. But it’s not aligned with reality. So 

[00:28:12] Dr. Mark Turman: talk about, so much to think about there, but talk about Melissa, how this is, how you see reflections of this same phenomenon, like I said, it goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden and to Satan’s first lie.

Yeah. More of us are typically more familiar with the New Testament. Talk about where you see this being confronted by writers like the Apostle Paul. Confronting like in the book of Galatians and in the book of Colossians and other things. People who were going around basically with new thought Gnostic type of ideas that said that the, the real, the greatest kind of Christianity was limited to a few people who would be privileged to figure it out, so to speak.

I heard you, I heard you in one conversation talk about that, you know, there’s the cockroach Christians and then there’s the elite. Okay. So talk about where you actually kind of see some of these same battles between authentic Christianity, biblical Christianity, and new thought type ideas.

See, how do you see those in the New Testament? Some of the battles that were happening, even the early first decades of the church. 

[00:29:21] Melissa Dougherty: Oh, 100%. And this is, this is why it evolves. It’s like a chameleon because it’s, it’s, that’s why new thought ultimately goes back to the garden. And then you go from there, whatever you want to call it, paganism, idolatry, Gnosticism the, the ideas are in essence the same.

And, and obviously. Very much the early church had to battle with Gnosticism and 1st John, which is such a fascinating book to read in light of new thought, because he’s writing to a church in 1st John that had been affected by Gnostics, like Gnosticism. And this is why you see the language that he uses.

and the way in which he uses it. Jesus, those who say that Jesus hasn’t risen bodily from the dead. The reason why he’s saying that is because Gnostics separated the world into two ideas, right? And I’m very, very much simplifying this. So any theologians listening, you’re like, that’s, you know, might need to be a little bit more accurate, probably, but first of 

[00:30:22] Dr. Mark Turman: all, give us the simple working Melissa definition of Gnosticism.

[00:30:25] Melissa Dougherty: I’m going to give you a Melissa definition. All it is, is basically they had this idea that anything physical was evil, and anything spiritual was pure and good. Okay. So Jesus couldn’t have risen bodily from the dead because that’s, that’s evil. He had to have risen spiritually. Okay. So the, the, and this is, it goes back again.

I mentioned Manuel Swedenborg. This is very important. This is very, very core to this idea that Your mind creates the physical world. Okay, because there’s a spiritual counterpart for everything. And that’s really true reality. That’s the truest part of you is spirit. Okay, your body, especially your mind can actually hold you back from an experience with God.

So you have to conquer the mind, right? All these things. Okay. I’m a very Gnostic touch. Your body is secondary, which is not scriptural. There’s a bodily resurrection for a reason. The body is good. Okay. And so you have all this stuff, you know, that he’s they’re dealing with. And then the famous first John four, he’s talking about testing the spirits.

[00:31:40] Dr. Mark Turman: Mm hmm. 

[00:31:41] Melissa Dougherty: That is so good because that implies that there’s false spirits, 

[00:31:48] Dr. Mark Turman: like it 

[00:31:49] Melissa Dougherty: implies that there’s a false Christ. And then in that same passage is talking about the antichrist spirit, you know, and so people read that and I think that they might. Assume certain things about it that I maybe wouldn’t agree with.

But I think looking back with those lens on like in light of your question with this lens of who he’s, who is he talking to and what Gnosticism is and how it’s around today and how he has. You know, talked to the Christians about this and he has said, clearly, this is a deception and what it is and why it is and in the way that he’s talking about, you know, God and how God is love and how the body works and the mind and all these things and how we are still dealing with this today.

And then even before then you have. The exaltation of humanity has been a problem since the beginning. We still see this and there, there, there’s a demotion of God and an exaltation of man. And I think that that is just the pattern, the wash, rinse, repeat pattern throughout all humanity. And I think that’s been the problem even after the church you see, you see how the, the, you know, the persecution ended and ended in the regard where, you know, the, the Bible, Christians could meet together.

You had church history starting all the things and it’s just been an issue since, since the beginning. And so I think that these are issues that they knew about. I mean, false Jesus’s false gospels, different spirits. These are things that Paul and the Apostles talked about and warned about. 

[00:33:27] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, I heard in an interview, not recent, or recently with Andy Crouch, how even in the book of Acts, we see how people are very much pursuing all kinds of ideas about spirituality, but they’re drawn toward that which is almost like magic.

And that, that’s what I thought of when I was reading through your work on New Thought is like, we want that which is magical and something that we can, we can come up with the right formula or the right spell by by conquering our mind and our body to create the reality that we want. Melissa, talk about how you were drawn not only to write about this, but to teach about it in other contexts.

How did this, how was this a part of your personal story, and how does that fuel some of the passion that you have for both writing this book and also exposing this kind of deception? 

[00:34:21] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah I came out of, These beliefs thinking they were new age and 2011. Let me define new age a little bit more because some people might still be scratching their heads because they, these are two different movements, which was a kick in the throat for me, if I’m honest, because I didn’t realize that I’m in ministry, like actively in ministry touching on a lot of topics.

And I learned. I would say recently three, four years ago, maybe at this point that, Oh no, these are two different things. So new age in fact here, I had my list up here that I think would be useful to go over. And this is also in chapter three of my book. I’m just going to name a few, but these are unique to new age, tarot, astrology, numerology chakras.

Yoga, reincarnation, past lives, karma star seeds, light work, astral projection, the zodiac, transcendental meditation, right? I was into almost none of these things, and these are, this is just a small list, by the way. There’s, there’s a lot more, but. My friend Carl Teichrib, he had a way of describing this, that New Age was more external and New Thought is more internal, because it’s actually a little bit more difficult to define New Thought.

But we’ve already discussed a few of them, you know, of, of the definitions, visualization, manifestation, law of attraction, affirmations, declarations co creating with God, prosperity, health and wealth teachings vibrations, frequencies, power in your words. These are things that would be more new thought but I thought they were Christian, okay, so I, I came out of this.

And immediately people are asking me like, Hey, what’s Reiki? Oh, you came out of the new age. That’s so crazy. What’s Reiki? And I’m like, what’s that? I 

[00:36:09] Dr. Mark Turman: had 

[00:36:11] Melissa Dougherty: no idea. I’d never heard of Reiki before. Sacred geometry, Melissa. What is that? I’m like, I didn’t know math was sacred. What? That’s a new age concept.

It was so confusing for me. But I started realizing quite quickly. I’m like, I wasn’t What is this? Is this New Age? Every, every wiggity wack belief is New Age. It’s fine. Turns out the reason why is because I was actually in the New Thought movement. And I started thinking, oh, okay, I was more New Thought, but it’s all New Age.

No, it really, really wasn’t. New Age is, is its own bucket. And I think that’s where That’s what really wanted me. That’s what pushed me over to kind of write about it, which I didn’t want to do. I, I, I had been very vocal on my channel, on my social medias and Nope. And I’m, I might be a little hypocritical now cause I’m like, I’m never doing this again.

But yeah, I said I would never write a book. I just, it was, no, I, it’s not for me. And, but when I saw this, I’m, I was so excited and disappointed cause I was excited because, oh, this is groundbreaking. Why is nobody talking about this? There’s been tons of books on new age, but. Nobody’s talking about new thought.

Why? It’s like right in front of our faces. And but I was also disappointed because I’m like, man, I have to write a book now. And it was, it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. And I’ve had kids, you know, like I’m not saying I’ve had an easy life or anything, but that was hard and it’s still difficult.

And there are still things that I. Wrote about that. I would still expand on maybe even change maybe even that’s why I like this I like doing interviews and stuff, you know, but Yeah, it was it was very difficult, but it had to be done and I’m hoping That’s now that something has been written about this and my I I haven’t Stop talking about it in a few months that people will grow on the topic and will become one of those things where people will write about it more that they will cover it more and be able to be like, oh, that’s That’s new thought.

I know what that is now because that’s not new age. There’s something off here. And I, I think it’s just been hiding behind the leg of new age for too long. And and yeah, you’re right. It is very personal to me. That’s the other aspect of it is that it is personal to me that I fell for this and I know there’s other Christians out there falling for it too.

And that’s. Really, it’s my love for them. It’s my love for them and for God and, and for truth is why I wrote this book. 

[00:38:36] Dr. Mark Turman: And such a helpful resource in that way. And like I said, it is a, it is a challenging thought or a challenging set of beliefs to get your mind around. But Melissa, so much of what you’re pointing to is really, in my opinion, kind of the theological framework that is built around what is commonly referred to as prosperity gospel.

Talk about that a little bit from the standpoint that One of the things that’s appealing about new thought concepts is that it kind of stokes that sense of entitlement that we have that God wants us to really be wealthy. He wants us to always be physically healthy and that that draws us in this direction because obviously nobody likes being poor or having insufficient resources.

Nobody likes being in pain or having an illness. And yet. Biblical Christianity says that, you know what, for some of us, those are realities. Yeah. I think of No less the person than the apostle paul who talks about one of his friends trophimus He says in his letter I had to leave trophimus sick because he was I had to leave him back in one of the cities because he was sick and And if the apostle paul can’t make you well, then who could possibly make you well you know after jesus talk about how it it really so much just ends up coming back around to those very human longings Of, you know what, I want to be wealthy.

I want to be famous. I want to be healthy. I want to be pretty. And how these kind of are the ultimate goals that New Thought drives towards. 

[00:40:14] Melissa Dougherty: Yes. And yeah, you’re right. So a lot of things that we’ve discussed in this discussion, some people might hear health and wealth and they think word of faith, which I have a whole chapter on.

[00:40:25] Dr. Mark Turman: Yep. 

[00:40:26] Melissa Dougherty: However, what’s groundbreaking was, at least for me to understand was. When I left New Age New Thought, because I was really late, maybe like 80, I saw these teachings that I had just left in the church, and I couldn’t explain why. What’s the connection here? Okay, because this looks like what I just come out of.

And what I discovered over time, of course, was that The health and wealth, prosperity, mindset, teachings, beliefs about God did not necessarily start with the word of faith movement. That is a new thought that was part of the new thought guys, if you will, that was part of the new thought DNA. That was the new thought language that God always wants you.

You should always be healthy and wealthy. God always wants only good for you. There is no room for suffering, which is actually, it takes away the beauty of the gospel, 

[00:41:32] Dr. Mark Turman: right? 

[00:41:33] Melissa Dougherty: It’s not good news. That is not a good God. Okay. That’s not even a good parent, 

[00:41:40] Dr. Mark Turman: right? 

[00:41:41] Melissa Dougherty: You know, and so I think that there’s that comes from a foundational understanding of who God is, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and does that God always will you to be healthy and wealthy, or is there a movement informing us?

That looks and sounds Christian that has affected this other movement, this word of faith movement that is informing it. And so I think there’s, there’s that, okay. I want to express the origins of this are, are more than messy and muddled. They’re not even biblical, even if they sound biblical. There’s that aspect of it and the prosperity and the health and the wealth and all that element of it. Is there anything that you want me to expand on in that regard when it comes to this topic? 

[00:42:22] Dr. Mark Turman: It just so much predominates our current culture, it seems, around those ideas. And that’s, you know, sometimes what you see are the churches that are growing the most are the churches that are perpetuating this, this idea, this doctrine.

And, and that anything that has to do with what I would call a more biblical understanding of suffering is just. Rejected and repulsed and and we just see so much abuse around that in, in so much of this thinking. And it’s almost it’s almost like new thought gets a new label on a regular basis.

Sometimes it’s called word of faith sometimes it’s called something else. But as you said, it’s always evolving, always evolving. Morphing itself. Yeah, it’s 

[00:43:07] Melissa Dougherty: infused in these ideas. And yeah, to kind of expand on what you’re saying the idea is, is that it’s an, a new, this is a new thought concepts. Like I said, people are going to hear this and they’re going to think Kenneth Copeland or whatever.

What I’m about to say is, is, is all new thought that if you’re sick. Or unhealthy or whatever, you’re not rich, it’s because you have brought it to yourself. There is something that you have done in your way of thinking that you’re not healthy, you’re not wealthy, you didn’t get that job, whatever it is.

because of the way you’re thinking. So if you can change your thinking, you can change your life. If you change your thinking, you can heal yourself. All of that is new thought. I mean, I’m, I’m thinking of Phineas Quimby when I’m saying that these are things that, you know, he has quoted and said. And I think that, again, it takes away from the beauty of, of the gospel.

Who, how, I don’t know if anybody has seen the documentary American gospel, but when that first came out, you know, I, I, I thought it was very beautiful with how they explained suffering and, and the God that comes down to us and lives with us and dwells with us in the, in our suffering. And is, is that God enough for you?

If you never had a healing, if you never had any miracles at all, is, is he worthy? Could you worship that God? Oh, I could worship a God that gives me all the, I could worship the God that heals me. I can worship that God that, you know, and it reminds me of in John six, Jesus is talking to, he’s walking, he just got done giving bread to feeding, you know, this massive amount of people.

And they’re following him because they want more bread. And he turns to them. Yeah. He turns to them. He’s you’re following me because you want something material like you, you want to be fed again. But he’s I’m the bread of life. Don’t you see? Like I’m the one who I, if you follow me and believe in me and I will give you the sustenance that you’re looking for, I can complete you.

And I, I’m still repeatedly shocked every time I think about this scripture because They look at him and they say this is a hard teaching, Jesus. He just did a miracle. And they turn and they walk away and they all leave him and he turns to the, yeah, he turned, they left him. They didn’t like what he said.

They wanted the material aspect of it and turns to his disciples and he’s you two leave me. And I love what Peter says. He’s who, to whom shall we go? And that’s the attitude and the posture that we should have. And this is why the prosperity gospel, this is why the thoughts are things, the speaking and believing, co creating with God, empty.

It’ll leave you empty and it will leave you wanting physical bread, and you will miss the forest for the trees because that’s not what it’s about. 

[00:46:07] Dr. Mark Turman: Absolutely. Yeah, so well said. Said. A couple of, maybe time for two more questions, but one of those was you talk about in your book this pivotal moment that really started you down this road of exposing new thought and it, it had to do with what you saw as cynicism that was coming out of biblical Christians.

[00:46:30] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. 

[00:46:31] Dr. Mark Turman: Talk about that story for a moment. 

[00:46:33] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. I still see this to be clear. I want to be. mindful of my brothers and sisters in Christ, you know, that the bride of Christ, we’re all part of the same thing here. But I also think that we have an, we have this strain in our church, like a vein of, of thinking a line of thinking, if you will, that is.

It’s cynical, negative, if you will and anti intellectual. And sometimes I still run into people who are, they’re very cynical, like they’re, they’re critical, they’re harsh, they’re judgmental, but a lot of it comes from fear. I think they’re just afraid to think about things maybe they’ve been hurt.

And that’s the posh. I err on the side of grace. But I, I also want to say that it does a lot of damage, okay, to Christians who are asking questions. Doubt is not the enemy. Ask questions. Doubt. 

[00:47:29] Dr. Mark Turman: God is not afraid. 

[00:47:30] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. He’s not afraid of your question. I wish somebody told me that. If I had come in contact with a Christian that’s Ooh, give me your doubts, man.

Tell me what you’re doubting. 

[00:47:37] Dr. Mark Turman: I’m 

[00:47:37] Melissa Dougherty: like, really? I mean, okay I don’t understand how I don’t understand how a loving God could send people to hell. What’s up with hell? I still struggle with hell. But now it’s like on the days that I don’t understand it. I understand enough theology. I understand enough about the attributes of God, about justice, that my feelings say one thing, but I’m like, okay, I struggle with this.

I don’t like it. However, hmm. There’s definitely a case for this. And now I know why. What’s up with the violence in the Old Testament? God seems this way. The God in the New Testament seems different. I mean, these are Christianity 101 questions. What about the crusades? What about this? What about, how did we get the Bible?

You know, and somebody’s leaning into it like, oh yeah, yeah. I asked those same questions. So here’s, here’s what I found out, you know, and sister so and her over there, she asked the same question. That is not the attitude I got. I was looked at as a self righteous kind of person. I’m still looked at that way.

I remember recently doing a talk and I don’t know how this is going to sound, and I want to be very careful saying this, but a lot of times, let’s just say I did not fit in with women’s Bible studies. I, I think I talked too much. I think that I was a little bit more curious than they wanted. And I think I challenged them in ways that they did not like.

And I think I still get that. I, I, some of them love it. Like a lot of people love this. They’re like, yes, I’ve asked the same questions. I see it too. And other, there’s other groups that are not comfortable with this and they do tend to be very Like, ugh, right? And that attitude, I, I, I don’t think is healthy.

I don’t think it’s good. I think that there’s an element there that we need to address. But also the, the, the other thing about it is I call it the anti intellectual thing where there, there, there are Christians out there that look at any sort of intellect, any sort of philosophy as just demonic. That, that, you know what, thinking too much is going to take you away from God.

And you know, we just need to have faith and pray. And I’m like, that’s bad. That will actually make you, you’re going to tell your kids that, and you’re going to tell other people that, and you’re going to be surprised when they fall away from the faith because they can’t critically. defend their beliefs.

If it’s true, it should stand on its own. If it’s not true, then it should be destroyed by truth. That’s the posture in Christianity. And Christianity is so rich in these doctrines and, and its alignment with reality and truth. And it’s just, I did not get that when I, when I first became a Christian, I was 16.

I was like the little snot nosed teenager, you know, so hungry to learn. And that’s, that is the culture and that I, came in contact with, mostly. I’m sure there were Christians out there that were not like that, that would have gladly took me under their wing, but most of them were your snot nosed 16 year old.

You’re a new Christian. How you should not be asking these questions. You know, and in a weird way, it’s still like that. I still come across that. Now I combat it a little different. I, I, I understand it a little different because I think a lot of the posture, I don’t look at that and I think, Oh yuck, back at them.

I look at that and I think there’s pain informing that reaction. There’s something behind pain or fear. 

[00:51:07] Dr. Mark Turman: Pain or fear. Yeah, that’s what I was 

[00:51:08] Melissa Dougherty: going to say. There’s pain or fear. You are afraid. Because If I were to, I look at the other way, I twist it around where if I were to come in contact with somebody that made me feel uncomfortable and I didn’t like them, I think I would want to be in the posture of why, why does that make me uncomfortable?

And then I’m thinking, oh, I actually understand why it’s because I disagree with them because I have factual information that, that would probably prove what they’re saying wrong. It’s a challenge to something I’m believing that might make me feel uncomfortable. And I’m like, okay, tell me more, right?

Tell me why I’m wrong. In fact, I was just on an interview with Dr. Robert Bowman Jr. He did the peer review for my chapter eight which is on the word of faith movement. And he wrote a whole book on it. And there are still elements that I’m learning about this movement. And he’s actually, I would have changed this.

I didn’t understand this part about your chapter. I’m like, and it’s uncomfortable. Okay, you have this brilliant scholar, right? They’re like, oh. This is, it stings a little bit, but. I’m like, tell me more. What do you mean? Yeah. You, you know about this, so what, what would you change? Blah, blah, blah, blah.

That I, I, he even told me, I was like, that’s the posture. I, I, I wanna have. Like I, that’s why I’m not an expert. I, I am like, I’m a learner. Tell me why versus the, oh, I think they’re wrong, and I know why. You know? 

[00:52:38] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. 

[00:52:39] Melissa Dougherty: So I, I just kind of. Take, take from that what you will, but that’s kind of my journey with, with that crowd and they know who they are.

You know, I think they know they struggle with it. A lot of it are maybe moms maybe women. I am a woman and I come across a lot of women who. 

[00:52:57] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. 

[00:52:58] Melissa Dougherty: Have a lot of discomfort in this area because I think they’re afraid and that’s how I see it. I don’t look at it. It’s oh, you’re the enemy. I look at it.

Tell me why you’re afraid. 

[00:53:07] Dr. Mark Turman: Tell 

[00:53:07] Melissa Dougherty: me what you’re afraid with. Yeah. 

[00:53:09] Dr. Mark Turman: So and yeah, one of the great things about your work is number one. It’s honest. And it’s curious. And those are two really great qualities, but the, the wonderful thing, right, is, is that when you start digging into these things with a humble spirit and with a dependence on the Holy Spirit, you start finding out that Christian truth and Christian doctrine really is beautiful and it, it can, and it has stood the test of time.

It can handle all of our questions more, more resiliently than anything else. And and you start to realize. Oh, this this really is a truth that lasts. It’s a truth that’s eternal and something that you can build on. It’s because it’s a foundation that really will support you. As one of our pastor friends here at Denison Forum said, Hey, I’ve, I’ve been to the bottom and the bottom holds, you know.

[00:54:02] Melissa Dougherty: That’s really good. I like that. You called a lot of people. I like that. I think that’s really, yeah, you have a good memory. 

[00:54:08] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah, I can hang on a good quote, you know, and kind of what you were talking about with, with suffering, I think it was Oz Guinness who said, only our God has wounds, 

[00:54:17] Melissa Dougherty: you know, that is so good.

[00:54:19] Dr. Mark Turman: He not only, he not only bears our wounds, he’s in the midst of our wounds and promises to restore and heal all of them at the end. But I’m going to write that one 

[00:54:28] Melissa Dougherty: down, Mark. 

[00:54:29] Dr. Mark Turman: Yeah. Yeah, I think I could live on a good quote every day. But Melissa, thank you. Thank you for helping us to discern this and to see the deception and the half truth that is all around us.

And I know that your work, these conversations, these interviews, as well as the book will help people to discern the deception and the twistedness of new thought. And we just. are grateful for what you’re doing. I hope we can follow your work and we will put your YouTube connection, everything in our show notes as well as a reference to where people can get the book and just again, thank you for being a part of today’s conversation.

Thank you for your ministry. Thank you for your work. We’re so glad to have you with us. 

[00:55:10] Melissa Dougherty: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. It’s been great. 

[00:55:13] Dr. Mark Turman: You bet. Thanks to our audience as well. Thanks for being a part of this conversation. If it’s been helpful to you, please rate, review us and share us with your friends and family.

And we look forward to seeing you next time on the Denison Forum Podcast. God bless you.